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A Final Word on the Waterboarding Challenge

by: chetly

Sun May 24, 2009 at 18:08:41 PM EDT


For those following the ridiculous waterboarding challenge issued by stunt trickster Bruce Fealk, here are a few observations.

(For those of you who agree this is abundantly stupid, no need to proceed further with this waste of time).

chetly :: A Final Word on the Waterboarding Challenge

Fealk's very challenge betrays his own principles.  If waterboarding were fundamentally immoral, he would not offer or suggest that anyone do it, let alone derive the apparent glee he has over the prospect of those he considers political enemies being waterboarded.  Read his writings on the topic - they are disgusting.

Fealk's challenge is that of a bully and school yard thug.  Laura Berman's op-ed blog entry at the time catches the theme here correctly.  It is this aspect that makes me most want to stand up to Fealk and accept the challenge on any terms.  The best way to defeat a thug is to stand up to them - but one learns over time that it is also best to pick your time and terms somewhat in standing up to the thug.  When the thug has a baseball bat and you have nothing, waiting for a better time is usually the wise thing to do. I won't let Fealk dictate the terms, and will walk away if they don't make sense.

Fealk's language is obscene and childish.  Calling people "chicken shit" and demanding they do things to cater to your whims is not civilized discourse.

Fealk will lie, misrepresent your words, and twist everything to the most extreme strawman possible.  Given his lack of trustworthiness, it wouldn't be wise to even believe he would pay up the pittance he has offered so far.

Fealk himself has shifted his "offer" or challenges - he began by offering cash per second and quickly shifted to payment to a charity.  He's added terms to an otherwise unclear challenge - trying to redefine waterboarding several times, one including use of urine, and trying to portray "craiglist" as a mechanism of identifying waterboarders. None of this was agreed upon at any time, though he insists that the challengee must accept those terms. He'll spin things as if I were somehow shifting terms, but I've never agreed upon anything to shift.

Given these realities, accepting any challenge issued by Fealk without extreme safeguards to ensure proper payment, let alone safety, would be difficult, and may ultimately be impossible.  My legal advisers suggest that a "contract" in this area is probably unenforceable, but even if it were, Fealk's word or signature would be valueless as well.

So here's my final word on the challenge itself.  I have always accepted that waterboarding is intended to create a mental state sufficient to induce confession - that is, it is at least highly uncomfortable, and certainly unpredictable since I have no experience with it.  No rational person would voluntarily subject themselves to something like that without considerable compensation, and more importantly, during the waterboarding itself, no rational person would try to endure any reasonable length of time if their wasn't a significant reward in mind to give one the incentive to endure.  This is why journalists who have tried it quit after 14 seconds - they have nothing to endure for.  A detainee however at least has the belief of 72 virgins in mind, and the moral cause of withholding timely information and being at war -- that is, if they can survive and hold-out long-enough they can see to fruition or success any plans they had in progress.  The record duration of a waterboarding by the US government in Gitmo was about 90 seconds, from what I've read or heard - from one of the top Al Queda officials, who clearly had a cause to endure for.

At $10 a second, even if I endured the record time, I'd make $900 on Fealk's first challenge.  For a trauma Fealk himself considers barbaric and torture, that's a paltry and pathetic sum of money to offer.  I'm rational - $900 isn't worth it whether it is defined as torture, unpleasant, or something in between. Why would someone push themselves a few extra seconds for a few extra $10 dollar bills?  The lack of money itself diminishes the interest, and money is the only real measuring stick we have.  If Fealk is interested in his challenge, he'll put a real stake and real money where his mouth is.  Even Fear Factor puts $50,000 on its macabre stunts - and they're easier things like eating bugs or highly controlled physical stunts with safety crews and (you can buy them) specialty insurance policies.  That's a good guage of the low-end of the market rate, I suppose.

So here's the deal - I'll do the stunt for a guaranteed $50,000 (the money must be physically availabe in cash or some secure negotiable insrument before the event) if I last 30 seconds (twice the time that the journalists who've done it) and double that amount for every 15 seconds thereafter, with some pre-determined ceiling. I'll retain the right to keep do multiple waterboards to hit the goal as well until I give up permanently (giving up is what its all about, isn't it?).  I'm guaranteed $5000 under any circumstance if I attempt the stunt in good faith and go any period of time.  In addition, an Alzheimer's Care charity will be guaranteed $100,000 and/or double what I earn if that amount turns out to be greater.  In the event of my death or health care needs, the entire amount above will go to my family or the necessary amount to my health care needs before paying charity (a form of self-insurance, avoiding the need for Fealk to take out a policy). Fealk can raise the money through any lawful source he wishes - but the money must be on hand at the time event in a standard cash equivalent. Additionally, I will own 50% copyright interest in any royalties and an exclusive license for unrestricted use on any video that is produced by Fealk or others (100% on my own productions), and I'll have the right of first refusal or negotiation with any media that wish to attend.

To make everything easier for Bruce, I have eliminated some of my early requirements. I'll provide my own medical personnel and the people waterboarding me, pursuant to agreed upon instructions and a definition of waterboarding most closely matching what has already been done to a journalist.  While there are precise details to be worked out here contractually - a basic definition shouldn't be hard to agree upon.  No extra changes (like "urine" usage) by Fealk though - we need to agree on a simple definition and stick to it.

If Fealk wishes to "compete" against me and can best me in time, he would earn the $50,000 assuming we both hit the minimum levels.

I can anticipate two criticisms from Fealk. First, he's going to criticize the amounts or even the idea that significant money be involved.  I believe in the free market, so I could care less about this criticism.  He started the challenge with an amount, so clearly its open to negotiation and he himself has lost the moral authority to criticize putting a price on this. If Fealk wants to event to occur and there is enough "demand" for it, then this shouldn't be a problem and he should have no problem raising the amount necessary.  Additionally, twice what I would earn goes to charity.  He should want to take on the challenge of raising that amount for charity, and if I'm truly not strong enough or "chicken-shit" as Fealk argues, then he should have no fear I'll come close to earning a significant amount.  Or is Fealk too "chicken-shit" himself to risk seeing me succeed on his challenge? On a challenge he'd prefer to control so that there is no definition of success and that he'd spin no matter how long I lasted as proof of his beliefs... here, we have a definition of a fair contest ahead of time, with real stakes and real motivations. If Fealk objects that it is "impossible" for him to raise this kind of money, then I guess that reflects on Fealk.  Nothing is impossible, but Fealk's connections and power may not be all that he claims it to be so perhaps the real challenge is whether he can raise the money or not.

Expect whatever I write to have the words twisted, so consider this my last word.

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Chetly, you missed the point entirely (0.00 / 0)
It's not about the money.  I'm surprised after seeing the video of Erich Muller, conservative shock jock, that you won't concede that waterboarding is torture.  

Muller was dead set in his opinion that waterboarding wasn't torture and did a 180 after having it performed on him and he didn't have all the ridiculous conditions on having it performed on him.  

I will admit, I would be afraid to have waterboarding performed on me, but then I believe that waterboarding is torture, so for me to do it to prove that point would be ridiculous, Chetly.

So you think the only reason that Muller only lasted 6 seconds is because the incentive wasn't high enough?  I think you ought to look at the video again, Chetly.  

Your response to my challenge in this post is all the answer I need Chetly.  If you really believed in the premise that waterboarding wasn't torture, you would do it without any money being on the table, just to prove me wrong, like Muller did.  Although, Olbermann did make good on the challenge to Hannity and gave $10,000 to charity for Muller's effort.  

Besides, the video of Muller is answer enough to the question of whether waterboarding is torture.  In fact, his effort and confession that waterboarding is torture is way better than anything you could say.  

Muller is a much better known personality in conservative circles and his admission is much more valuable than yours would be.  Chicken Chetly sticks with you though based on the number of conditions you felt were necessary before you would agree to take up the challenge.


I'm not set in a position (0.00 / 0)
Bruce, that's where you miss my point.

I'm not "set" in a position either.  I accept that waterboarding very likely would be torture in some circumstances - indeed, probably most.  But not all.

Killing isn't murder in all circumstances, but if you held up a video of a killing you might be able to get people to temporarily forgo scrutiny and say that all killing was murder.

Eating ants wouldn't be "torture" (although in some cases forced ant-eating might rise to the level of torture), but it would be sufficiently unpleasant for me that I'd want you to pay me money to do it - particularly if it were part of some show you planned on airing.

Neither of our words here prove anything Bruce, despite your pomposity and belief that they mean anything.

And this is my final warning to you - stop the name calling on this website.


Chetly, Waterboarding is Torture, Period. It is Illegal, period (0.00 / 0)
If even after seeing the video of Erich Muller you won't admit all waterboarding is torture, you are an even more simple minded ideologue than I had thought possible.  Muller's waterboarding was just splashing a little water on his face, right Chetly.  While you were putting all manner of conditions on your being waterboarded, Muller just manned up to put his actions in line with his words.  You on the other hand, Chetly, were busy putting conditions on an act you considered nothing more than "pouring a little water on your face."  You talk the talk, Chetly, but you don't walk the walk, like most of your conservative friends.

Muller was also man enough to admit he was wrong and admit that waterboarding is torture, no question about it.  Not you, Chetly.  Oh, no.  You still cling to your notion of different kinds of waterboarding.  I may even agree with you, but the kind we did was even worse because it was combined with other mistreatments, sleep deprivation, cold room and others and we did it to our prisoners tens of times.

You can't take a little name calling?  I already have signs made up for the next time we meet Chetly and t-shirts and buttons.  There's a whole industry growing around you, Chetly.  It's good for Michigan union jobs. I hired a union shop to make the shirts, buttons and signs.  Bumper stickers are on the way. Hope you don't mind.  I know you you love right-to-work.

All that is said tongue in cheek.



Muller can afford alot more insurance than I (0.00 / 0)
Muller makes a ton more money that I do and can afford alot more insurance than I can - he's also in a position where he can capitalize the publicity stunt itself without much effort.

I also don't get his statement as an admission of anything.  First, it was after repeated leading questions, and he said it half-handedly.  Second, it was obtained under duress -- lest you say that admits anything, I've admitted all along wb is designed to elicit information through duress.  Third, it was an artificial situation and there is no factual context to compare it to the acts you allege.  I certainly don't believe Mancow himself was tortured here - he sat up quickly and didn't seem too permanently damaged.  I'm sure it was bad physchologically.

I also don't disagree that wb could and often is torture, I just say we should be careful to evaluate every

You use a great term here - "mistreatments" in referring to "cold room," sleep deprivation, etc. but you seem to acknowledge that they are not automatically tortures.  Or is any use of "cold room" also "torture." What makes them "mistreatments" and waterboarding "automatically" something else.  All are intended to provoke discomfort to elicit information - under the most expansive definition all would be torture automatically.

Let me give you a piece of context I think would automatically be torture.  Use of waterboarding to elicit a confession for the purpose of evidence or confession in trial, as opposed to very limited use of the technique solely to elicit information in a timely enough and for the purpose of preventing an attack.  There is no context in which evidence gathered from the action would be reliable enough to ever make it in to any court or tribunal. Hence, waterboarding an Al Queda prisoner in 2008 after long-detention would be pointless, but it might not be in 2002 in very rare circumstances.  Use of waterboarding to control prisoners behavior would be a crime, or if done out of dislike for a prisoner or any similar personal motivation.

Under this standard - use of waterboarding to elicit a confession of testimony, your very challenge is torture, Bruce.  You are motivated by the desire to elicit a confession - waterboarding would certainly give you a high probability of getting that - but it wouldn't mean anything morally or in terms of truth as to what is right or wrong.


[ Parent ]
I have to admit (0.00 / 0)
your posts give me a good chuckle, Chetly.  They are so absurd and ridiculous.  You actually watched that video of Muller and don't think he made a full-throated admission that all waterboarding is torture?  Amazing!

You live in your own little delusional world, Chetly.  I don't know how many people live there with you, but I hope it's not too many.  

I will give you one thing, you are true to the conservative ideology even in the face of overwhelming evidence.


Full-throated (0.00 / 0)
Yes, full-throated.  I'm sure you intended that pun.

His admission or beliefs have no bearing on the facts of any other case of law - namely the war crime question you raise.

What gets me is that our views are so close to each other yet you continue to strawman my argument as "conservative ideology".  If I were being an ideologue, I wouldn't 1) be opposed to waterboarding as a matter of policy 2) supported the McCain position against torture generally and waterboarding specifically 3) agree that Bush's policy was a mistake.

The only thing I disagree upon is the blanket assertion that all waterboarding equals a war crime, and that I believe each case must be analyzed in the context of its situation and facts.  That is - I believe in jurisprudence and hundreds of years of accepted due process and common law.  You argue for a false equivalence of different moral weights because it suits you today - and I've pointed out that your false equivalence is dangerous.  So dangerous that it would require the overthrow of the top 6 American leaders - from Obama to Byrd.  If Pelosi understood the difference in 2002 and looked the other way - then that suggests the context was a legitimate defense.


[ Parent ]
There is no difference (0.00 / 0)
in the type of waterboarding or whether some waterboarding is legal and other waterboarding is illegal.  I dare you to find one legal definition that differentiates between different types of waterboarding.

All waterboarding is illegal and torture and all torture is a war crime.  

Bush's policy wasn't a mistake, Chetly.  His authorizing of torture, not just waterboarding, is a war crime.  

The only thing lacking is the political will to prosecute to bring forth the evidence to convict.


I dare you (0.00 / 0)
I dare you to find one legal definition that mentions waterboarding specifically as torture, or says that all waterboarding is illegal, or eliminates the possibility of self-defense/impending-destruction as a defense.  I'll settle for just the first two though.

How's your man Gary Peters on prosecuting Bush?  Has he signed a letter demanding Bush's prosecution?  Have you asked him to?


[ Parent ]
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